Opste teniske diskusije,vijesti...

[Grunge]

@Vanja
Koju si formulu koristio za odredjivanje seedova na Wimbledonu?

[BOKI1969]

@Vanja
Koju si formulu koristio za odredjivanje seedova na Wimbledonu?

Pocelo je

[Grunge]

Sta je pocelo?

[BOKI1969]

Sta je pocelo?

Evo pitaj Vanju on ide u detalje pa ce ti objasniti na siroko o cemu se radi

[Grunge]

Pa njega sam i pitao, ali si mi ti prvi odgovorio na prilicno nejasan nachin.

[BOKI1969]

Pa njega sam i pitao, ali si mi ti prvi odgovorio na prilicno nejasan nachin.

Da pojasnim pokusavamo izvuci reakciju Rafinih navijaca koji jos nemogu da se pomire sa novonastalom situacijom ;)

[Grunge]

Onda vam nesto ne ide

Elem, da se vratimo na "temu".
Mene najvise zanima ako moze neko da mi da izvor te nove formule (koju je Vladan okachio gore). Ne mogu nigde da nadjem da su od ove godine promenili formulu koja je vec dugo vremena ista. Evo npr. prosle godine je bilo identicno kao i prethodnih x godina:

HOW THE SEEDS ARE WORKED OUT
Official ATP ranking points as at a week before Wimbledon where we start off, that's all points gained in all the tournaments you played in last year, be it clay, grass, hard, the surface of the moon, whatever. After this, the men are then given extra points as per the following formula:

- Add 100% points earned for all grass court tournaments in the past 12 months.
- Add 75% points earned for best grass court tournament in the 12 months before that.

Dakle formula je bila Ranking poeni 7 dana pre Wimbledona + broj poena na travi u zadnjih godinu dana *1.00 + broj poena na najboljem turniru na travi godinu dana pre toga * 0.75
Ukoliko je ona tacna, onda Federer sa uracunatim poenima za Wimbledon seedovanje (a bez rezultata ovogodisnjeg RG-a, jer tu mora da mu se oduzme jos 360 poena i doda onoliko koliko osvoji ove godine) ima ukupno 10400 poena.
Djokovic po istim pravilima ima 12765 poena.
Nadal ima 14160 poena.

S obzirom na navedeno, ne vidim nacin kako Federer moze prestici Novaka i Nadala cak i da osvoji RG, jer bi u tom slucaju imao 12040 poena. Djokovic ne moze ici ispod 12400, a Nadal ne moze ispod 12170.

[Vanja #66]

@Grunge

Racunao sam sadasnji_poeni + iz_2010_sve_travnate_turnire_x2 + iz_2009_sve_travnate_turnire_x1.75.
Krenuo sam da racunam kako si ti rekao, ali me smorilo, pa necu racunati dok mi neko ne da pouzdanu informaciju kako se racunaju poeni za W. Na oficijalnom sajtu ne mogu da nadjem tu informaciju.

[Vladan]

They take the player's entry ATP points (the week before Wimby) and add:

1) ADD 100% points earned for ALL grass court tournaments in the past 12 months.

2)ADD 75% points earned for BEST grass court tournament in the 12 months before that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A70123088

How the seeding is determined at Wimbledon

Seeding at the Wimbledon Championships is not determined in quite the same way as at other tennis tournaments. Instead of being based solely on the Association of Tennis Professionals (ATP) Entry System Position, seeding at Wimbledon for the men’s singles takes into account grass court performance. Thus seeding will not necessarily be in the same order as the 32 highest ranked players.

In tennis tournaments and other sports, individual players and teams are seeded so as to protect them from early elimination. If the names of all 128 men (or women) in the singles draw at Wimbledon were placed in a barrel and names drawn at random, two top ranked players might play each other in the first round, knocking one out. Much lower ranked participants would have a reasonable chance of advancing through the rounds and reaching the finals without meeting a really good player.

To try and reduce such inequities, the names of the 32 highest ranked men and 32 women are arranged in the draw in such as way that none of them will play one another until the third round. The top 16 seeds will not meet until the fourth round, the top eight before the quarters, the highest four until the semis, and the top two seeds cannot meet until the final. The other 96 entrants’ names are drawn from the barrel and fill the remaining places, such that no seeded player has another seeded player in their initial group of four who meet in the first two rounds. The system is never completely fair as the 33rd ranked player could meet the top seed in the first round, and the person ranked 32nd could play a qualifier.

Wimbledon takes the ATP rankings as at mid June and then, unlike other tournaments, makes some adjustments. Firstly, it doubles the points that players have earned in grass court tournaments over the previous year. Secondly, it multiplies by 1.75 the points earned on this surface 1-2 years ago. These ‘bonus’ points are added to the normal ATP points from other tournaments to arrive at revised total points and new rankings. This listing determines the order of the 32 seeds.

This means a player ranked 10th in the ATP rankings might move to, say, 7th in the rearranged rankings at Wimbledon with good grass court performances. The player is ‘protected’ from meeting a top eight player until the quarters, whereas he might have to meet a top eight player in the fourth round if unadjusted ATP rankings were used. In 2009, Marat Safin moved from 23rd seed to 15th seed under this system, meaning he couldn’t meet a top 16 player until the fourth round, instead of the third round. Philipp Kohlschreiber moved into the top 32, coming in at 27th seed, meaning he was protected from playing a seeded player until the third round rather than potentially in the first round.

The arguments behind the different system of seeding players at Wimbledon is because the tournament is played on grass and if a player has excelled on grass at other events, then he should be entitled to a higher seeding than his position on the ATP rankings. Most tournaments are now played on hard courts or clay. The remaining grass court competitions on the ATP circuit include the AEGON Championship at Queen’s, London and the AEGON International at Eastbourne, UK, both lead-up events to Wimbledon. Others are the Gerry Weber Open in Germany, the UNICEF (previously Ordina) Open in the Netherlands, and the Hall of Fame Championships at Rhode Island, US.

Opportunities for any player to compete in grass court tournaments are even fewer, because the Gerry Weber and UNICEF events are held at the same time as the AEGON competitions. The Hall of Fame tournament is held in the week following Wimbledon when many of the top players take a break. The two AEGON tournaments in June are favored by most players so they can acclimatize to English conditions and try to gain some extra points before the Wimbledon seedings are announced. The system provides a real boost for these tournaments and perhaps this is a major reason for the continuation of this seeding method. Indeed, Wimbledon contributes to the other tournaments on the grass court circuit.

It is hard to think of other reasons Wimbledon continues with its different seeding process. The serve and volley style of play is no longer an advantage on grass, due to advances in racket technology allowing everyone to hit the ball hard these days. A player that comes into the net will be passed much of the time. Nearly everyone now plays from the baseline on all surfaces.

For some reason, the women’s seeding is not adjusted for grass court performances. Here the seeds are based on the Women’s Tennis Association rankings, although changes may be made depending on the view of Wimbledon’s Committee of Management. In 2009, Dinara Safina was the top ranked women’s player and number one seed. However, she has always struggled at Wimbledon and, if the men’s seeding process had been used, she might have been seeded below Sarina Williams and Venus Williams at least. The only adjustment in the women’s draw in 2009 was for 2004 winner Maria Sharapova who had been out injured for nine months. She became the 24th seed.

Wimbledon’s way of determining the seeding is controversial, and inconsistent between the men’s and women’s events. Given the conservative nature of the committee and the tournament, and the support it provides to other grass court competitions, the methods are unlikely to change in the short term.

http://www.helium.com/items/1832857-...d-at-wimbledon

[Vanja #66]

To mi treba Vladane, tacna informacija, a ne da nagadjam... Hvala.
Evo kako ce zapravo izgledati lista (kad bi postigli iste rezultate na RG):

1 - Nadal - 14115
2 - Nole - 13297.5
3 - Federer - 12400

Sada Feki ima da savlada 1715 za 1. mesto, dakle osvoji RG, Nadal nebitno kako odigra, a Nole bi onda, da bi pretekao Fekija, morao da dobije jos min 383 poena, odnosno dodje do finala.
Dakle, ipak se svasta moze desiti.
Ali, sacekacu zreb za RG pa cu baciti jos malo spekulacija na ovaj thread, ionako nemam sta pametnije da radim...

[Grunge]

Ja sam ti napisao isto ovo sto je i Vladan, cak sam citirao i isti tekst sa BBC sajta. Zato mi nije jasno kako si dobio te brojke. Na koju foru si za Federera sa 8390 bodova dosao do 12400? Evo ti moja racunica za njega pa uporedi (uzecu da na RG-u ostvari proslogodisnji rezultat, kako si i ti uzeo, da bi poredjenje bilo moguce):

Trenutni broj poena za Federera: 8390.
Bodovi sa turnira na travi u proteklih godinu dana: (360 Wimbledon + 150 Halle = 510)
Bodovi sa najboljeg tirnira na travi u godini pre toga: (Wimbledon 2000 * 0.75 = 1500)

Ukupno: 8390+510+1500 = 10400 bodova.

Ti pravis gresku u tome sto racunas sve duplo za ove bonuse. Obrati paznju da kada u gore citiranom tekstu pishe:

Firstly, it doubles the points that players have earned in grass court tournaments over the previous year. Secondly, it multiplies by 1.75 the points earned on this surface 1-2 years ago. These ‘bonus’ points are added to the normal ATP points from other tournaments to arrive at revised total points and new rankings.

Znaci greska ti je u tome sto ti racunas ove poene za travu i u osnovnom rankingu (svi turniri u zadnjih godinu dana) i jos ih dodatno mnozis sa 2.0 i sa 1.75. Ne mozes to da radis tako. Ako mnozis sa 2.0 i sa 1.75, onda prvo oduzmi te poene za travu u poslednjih godinu dana iz osnovnog rankinga. Druga varijanta ti je da nista ne izdvajas, ali u tom slucaju mnozis sa 1.0 i sa 0.75.
To sto si ti radio je u sustini dodavanje 200% za proteklu godinu i 175% za najbolji turnir iz godine pre toga. A to je pogresno jer je potrebno dodati 100% i 75% respektivno.

[bojanaBG]

Bas ono sto smo pricali pre neki dan, o sponzorima, ugovorima itd.
Federer je na godisnjoj Forbosovoj listi i nalazi se na 25. mestu i evo sta pise:

Arguably the greatest tennis player ever, the Federer era may be nearing its end. He has been passed by both Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic in the rankings. Federer still commands the most impressive endorsement portfolio in all of sports with 10 major deals including Nike, Credit Suisse, Rolex and Wilson. He was the only one of Gillette's original 3 "Champions" to have his deal renewed this year as the brand dropped Tiger Woods and Thierry Henry.

evo je i cela lista:
http://www.forbes.com/wealth/celebrities/list?category=

[Vanja #66]

Ja sam ti napisao isto ovo sto je i Vladan, cak sam citirao i isti tekst sa BBC sajta. Zato mi nije jasno kako si dobio te brojke. Na koju foru si za Federera sa 8390 bodova dosao do 12400? Evo ti moja racunica za njega pa uporedi (uzecu da na RG-u ostvari proslogodisnji rezultat, kako si i ti uzeo, da bi poredjenje bilo moguce):

Trenutni broj poena za Federera: 8390.
Bodovi sa turnira na travi u proteklih godinu dana: (360 Wimbledon + 150 Halle = 510)
Bodovi sa najboljeg tirnira na travi u godini pre toga: (Wimbledon 2000 * 0.75 = 1500)

Ukupno: 8390+510+1500 = 10400 bodova.

Ti pravis gresku u tome sto racunas sve duplo za ove bonuse. Obrati paznju da kada u gore citiranom tekstu pishe:

Znaci greska ti je u tome sto ti racunas ove poene za travu i u osnovnom rankingu (svi turniri u zadnjih godinu dana) i jos ih dodatno mnozis sa 2.0 i sa 1.75. Ne mozes to da radis tako. Ako mnozis sa 2.0 i sa 1.75, onda prvo oduzmi te poene za travu u poslednjih godinu dana iz osnovnog rankinga. Druga varijanta ti je da nista ne izdvajas, ali u tom slucaju mnozis sa 1.0 i sa 0.75.
To sto si ti radio je u sustini dodavanje 200% za proteklu godinu i 175% za najbolji turnir iz godine pre toga. A to je pogresno jer je potrebno dodati 100% i 75% respektivno.

Racunao sam sadasnji bodovi + jos jednom od prosle trave + 1,75* trava od pre 2 godine (2009).
Prvi put sam racunao ovo poslednje - bold, a drugi put onako kako je Vladan napisao. Pritom se racunaju svi uspesi iz 2009 na travi, a ne samo najbolji. Ja to tako vidim, jer koliko se meni cini, bodovi sa trave od pre 2 godine se trenutno ne racunaju u sadasnje bodove. Dakle, Britanci racunaju duplo proslogodisnji uspeh, a sa 1.75 od pre 2 godine, tako ja razumem, a to je i logicno, jer obozavaju da isticu travu. Tvoje racunanje je tacno, ali nam se modeli ne slazu. U svakom slucaju, malo je nepotrebno sada se baviti time. Ima ko ce.

[Vladan]

Ja sam pronasao danas ono sto sam prvi put postovao,ali nisam uspio zvanicno,tako da vjerujem da to nije tacno i da se nista nije promijenilo ;)

[bojanaBG]

Po oovm pitanju ja se slazem sa Grungom, i mislim da se racuna: atp bodovi + 100% od prosle godine na travi + 75% od najboljeg rezultata na travi iz 2009. godine.